Trouble Starting 50cc - Verucci

[Kite]

Hope someone can help me...

This is what I've done so far.
1. Replaced the battery
2. Replaced the spark plug
3. Replaced the coil
4. Replaced the cdi
5. change out fuel lines and filter and drained gas tank
6. Bought a new Carburetor with new electronic choke
--------------------------------------------------------------
Some times but not always I can get it to start by bouncing on it then try
starting it. lol
Twice now I been able to start it just by touching the Kick start while trying to start it.
Wiggling the starter relay has gotten it started one time
draining the carburetor , then trying to start it has worked a couple of time
With this information can some one tell me what to check or look for
to figure out why the scooter is giving me a extremely hard time starting ?
Once the scooter starts it runs fairly well , I can feel just a slight speed loss maybe
for speedometer is broken.
Any Ideas ?

[goosestale]

Fuel pump? With all that jiggling it seems like a bad elecrical connection somewhere though..

[Fox]

Does the starter work and it cranks and cranks a lot but won't start or does the starter work intermittently?

If the starter works and it's just hard starting I think we all will agree that a valve adjust is the first place to start and then do a idle mixture screw adjustment. The instructions are here:

http://www.scooterforumonline.com/index.php/topic,1720.0.html

 If the starter is intermittent, then like Goosey said it's a connector or an electrical issue.

 What size engine?

Is the fuel tank under the seat in the back or under the floor board?

[Kite]

Does the starter work and it cranks and cranks a lot but won't start or does the starter work intermittently?

If the starter works and it's just hard starting I think we all will agree that a valve adjust is the first place to start and then do a idle mixture screw adjustment. The instructions are here:

http://www.scooterforumonline.com/index.php/topic,1720.0.html

 If the starter is intermittent, then like Goosey said it's a connector or an electrical issue.

 What size engine?

Is the fuel tank under the seat in the back or under the floor board?

Thanks for the help you two.
It's been very frustrating, did not have the money to take it and have it checked.
Been trying to fix this problem for almost 3 months now.
I started replacing with one item at a time thinking it was one of the above that I had replaced.
But no. Now I have all new parts and still same problem , sad face.

The Starter works fine , its just doesn't start.
50cc engine.
Fuel tank is in the back of bike.
Don't think it is fuel pump for if the scooter doesn't start , then I have to drain the carbuetor fill with too much fuel. Think scooters flood easily in general.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was wondering why if anyone would know why trying to start it ....
All I did was gently wiggle the kick starter and twice it started that way, the wiggle was less force then a
gentle hand shake ?
Is there a switch or something near the kick starter area ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This maybe the key....
I think if you help me focus on this and maybe I can fix it....
several months ago. when I ride my wife or  child on the bike the bike would cut off.
So after searching I found that the original owner had tie straps of the wiring under the seat and was
very tight and when you add the extra weight that the wires under there were being smashed.
I found 1 or 2 wires with exposed wire damage.
I wondering if maybe another wire is damages from the inside with out the exposed damage.
If so  how can I figure out what wire is giving me the problem.
Basically now....
I'm asking for help in diagnose a electrical problem , mainly the wires near the carburetor , under the seat,
near the cdi... anyone give me suggestions on this. 

[Fox]

My suggestion would be to look at tghem with your eyes and apply tape to any exposed wires.

Also, DO A VALVE ADJUSTMENT!@

[Kite]

My suggestion would be to look at tghem with your eyes and apply tape to any exposed wires.

Also, DO A VALVE ADJUSTMENT!@

Ok, its running fine. and I adjusted the air / careubuetor and its running fast.

I also starting thinking about the kick start....
It started 2 times just puting my finger on the kick start while trying to start it
with my battery.

Why a valve Adjustment ?
It runs fine , just not starting ....

I had the whole day looking at it today. and I gave the kick start a try
this is my first  " kick start "  bike... and when I first tried the kick start
6 months ago it seemed to be really hard to push down so gave up and just used the
battery...

Anyways.....
The bike started 10 times straight using the kick start..

So maybe you guys think might be the starter / relay ?
I'm not familar with scooters
The starter turns over with the battery, just does not start
Does the starter /relay have anything to do with the " electrical starting like supplying
current to the cdi until the bike starts running..
then the stator kicks in ?

Basically asking if it could be the starter relay stoping the bike from
starting ?
Kick start is working thank god. lol

Thanks for the input on this. Getting my thinking cap going
but you see in the first thread post , that my thinking cap cost me
over $ 200 replacing unnecessary parts 

[Fox]

LOOK, IF THE STARTER IS TURNING WELL THEN THE RELAY IS OKAY.

 THE VALVES CONTROL THE FUEL AND THE EXHAUST. THEY ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE ENGINE. IF THEY ARE EVEN SLIGHTLY OUT OF WHACK THEN IT'LL SCREW UP THE ENGINE. JUST CHECK THE VALVES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

 I'M A SCOOTER MECHANIC WITH YEARS OF EXPERIENCE TALKING TO YOU.

ANYONE ELSE WANT TO BACK ME UP ON THIS?

[frostyman]

Yes Fox.

KITE: Watch this video and take note beginning at the 40 second mark: Sounds like you both replaced the same things almost:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaKyYpdYmjQ

Just follow the directions  in the link about "valve adjustments" that Fox posted though-----here is the same link:  
http://www.scooterforumonline.com/index.php/topic,1720.0.html

I wore out my starter back in the day because it wouldn't start, but once the good ol' valves were adjusted---it started right up.

On my old engine, I probably set/check my valves about 4 times in a year(maybe more when problems occur).

[Kite]

LOOK, IF THE STARTER IS TURNING WELL THEN THE RELAY IS OKAY.

My starter relay has 2 wires comming out from it besides the the wire
that goes to the starter.
Battery wire goes to the relay and then splits to
starter and then 2 small wires go into the wire harness..

I mentioned last reply that I did not realize that the scooter will start
every time cold or hot
with the kick start...

The problem I am having is that the bike will not start with the battery

The bike will start every time with the kick start.

I will check the valves , but if the valves were off then I should not be
able to kick start it.

At least know I can ride my bike using the kick start. for 3 months
I been trying to use the battery and no scooter.

The reason I think its in the starter relay is I had tapped that relay and the
bike did start several times last month.

Does anyone know where those 2 wires go to. comming from the
starter relay.
I think its the current to the cdi. from the battery.
I going to take it to scooter repair and talk to them.
Thanks for the help you guys.

It sounds like I am argueing with you''s  ,,, I am not..
I really appreciate the input..
I had no one to talk to about this...
Thanks again

[Fox]

Okay so now you're speaking in tech talk. The Chinese batteries are cheap. They don't hold a charge for long if you leave your scooter sitting. Maybe the stator/charging coil is bad so the battery isn't charging when riding. Maybe you got a bunk battery.  

Here's how you check it:

Do you have a voltage meter? If so set it to 20 volts DC and put the probes to the battery terminals. It should read about 12.3 - 12.5 volts with the engine off. Anything less indicates a weak or bad battery. Next, start the engine and check the voltage with the engine revving at 2-3000 RPM's. It should read 13-14 volts. If it doesn't go up then the stator coil is bad or the wiring from the stator is bad.

The cheapest batteries are here:
http://www.pccmotor.com/atv-battery.html

The BA03 is a good battery but you must keep it charged with a trickle charger if you are going to store your scoot for more than 3-4 weeks.

 FYI: The starter relay is just a heavy duty switch. The start button can't handle the amps to crank the starter motor. It would melt so the relay is triggered when you press the button. (two small wires) The relay sends 12 volts DC directly from the battery to the starter motor. (2 large wires)  

 If you take something metal and touch it between the two large connectors on the relay it will crank the starter with the key off.


It's like if you have a wire in each hand and when someone presses a button you touch the two wires together. (2 large wires)


 One last thing: Adjust the valves!  It's something that should be done on a scooter that starts and runs every so often anyway.

[goosestale]

He did replace the battery once.

From what I'm reading, I would look at the connections at the relay and starter.
It is not really a good idea to kickstart all the time, likely to crack your cover eventually. So now it's not an emergency, but you do need to find the problem.

The valve adjustment may help with your flooded carb problem. Doesn't cost anything but time to do it yourself. 

[Kite]

 FYI: The starter relay is just a heavy duty switch. The start button can't handle the amps to crank the starter motor. It would melt so the relay is triggered when you press the button. (two small wires) The relay sends 12 volts DC directly from the battery to the starter motor. (2 large wires)  

Thanks understand about the 2 little wires now..
This is the bottom line....
My scooter starts fine with the kick start
My scooter will not start with the battery
The battery is brand new. " new "
I bought it hoping to fix the problem.
The bike will start every time with the kick start
The bike will not start with the battery
The bike will turn over with the battery , just not start
The bike will start every time with the kick start.

Can anyone tell me where to look for a short that would cause this ?

[Fox]

If the starter cranks good but it only starts with a kick then it's a weak battery or valves.

If the starter cranks good but it only starts with a kick then it's a weak battery or valves.

If the starter cranks good but it only starts with a kick then it's a weak battery or valves.

If the starter cranks good but it only starts with a kick then it's a weak battery or valves.

If the starter cranks good but it only starts with a kick then it's a weak battery or valves.

Have you done the voltage checks that I suggested or the valve adjustment?

No you haven't so do us all a favor and do them and come back with the results

[Kite]

Why in the world do I need to check the Valves if it starts fine
with the kick start ?
You are not listening .
The batery is new, and will turn the bike over for 30 minutes.

Thanks for listening.

[Fox]

Because the kick starter spins the engine faster than the electric starter Einstein! The faster the engine spins the easier it'll start. If I were to spend a 1/2 hour with your scooter it would run and start like new. I get paid to do that all the time.

You want references and phone numbers?

There's a systematic way of diagnosing an issue and you seem to be reluctant to do that. You want an easy fix. A magic bullet. Well, it doesn't exist. You have to go through and eliminate each and every suspect until you find the problem.

That's it! I'm done with this topic.

GOOD LUCK HOMEY!